Wednesday, September 14, 2011

Imagining the Eighth Dimension

A direct link to the above video is at

As we continue to add dimensions, the orthogonal hypercube projections that we're looking at here with each new dimension become increasingly ornate, and (dare I say it) more mandala-like.

Another eight-dimensional shape that we've looked at with this project is Garrett Lisi's E8 Rotation. Lisi created a huge stir in the physics world with a new proposal for what he calls An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything that uses "E8" - a complex, eight-dimensional pattern with 248 points.

As visually appealing as this shape (pictured below) might be, its implications are startling: Lisi has demonstrated that there is a way to place the various forces and elementary particles (including their possible quantum spin values) on E8's 248 points. Rotating Lisi's model in various ways reveals the explanation for a variety of interactions, some of which (like the clustering of quarks into families of three) are natural outcomes from this structure. Some points in his model are currently occupied by particles which have been theorized but which have yet to be seen, and there is hope that the Large Hadron Collider in Switzerland may some day reveal some of those particles.

Whether Garrett Lisi's theory proves the existence of higher dimensions or not is open to interpretation - Lisi himself says this geometric pattern, although it is based upon an 8 dimensional construct, could be fully realized within our 4D space-time without requiring additional dimensions. On the other hand, in a New Scientist magazine article, string theorist Sabine Hossenfelder (of the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics) points out that this could be complimentary to string theory, which she says also uses E8 to describe the Calabi-Yau manifold, the extra-dimensional shape that string theorists says our universe is derived from.

Lisi also acknowledges that this is not a finished theory but a work in progress, and that there are still some deficiencies in his model that need further refinement. For me, this dimensional connection is fascinating because with this project I've insisted that you can't have any physical expressions of matter in anything beyond the 8th dimension.

Why Do We Need the 8th Dimension?
A commonly asked question about this project is, "if our universe and every other universe can be thought of as "points", or perhaps "positions" within a multiverse landscape, and in this way of visualizing the dimensions we get to that landscape by the time we're at the seventh dimension, then why do we need to think about any more dimensions beyond that?

To my way of thinking, you can express the same concern about every definition of every single dimension, and the arguments have to keep coming back to "what are we missing within this current dimension?".

For instance, people say that the third spatial dimension is really all you need, because no matter what other universe you imagine it should have a third dimensional expression.

Or there are people who say all we need is space-time, because by the time you have the third dimension plus time, which gives the third dimension a way to change from state to state, then you can imagine every single possible universe strung end to end within infinite space-time, and because that string of possible states is infinite you will eventually get to every possible universe.

Or you can have people who say space-time plus its probabilistic outcomes (which Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation says are "orthogonal" or "at right angles" to space-time, leading to my conclusion that these branches are in the fifth dimension) gives you everything you need to imagine every possible universe.

From there, I've proposed that the branches for our universe which no amount of chance or choice will allow us to select (like the branches where dinosaurs never became extinct or the ones where I died in a car accident last year) are in the sixth dimension, and this uses the same logical reasoning that defines any spatial dimension - there always needs to be a "new degree of freedom" added for us to be able to call what we're talking about a new dimension, and the new dimension allows us to get to something that was unavailable from the previous dimensions.

Likewise, I've proposed that those other universes with different basic physical laws are located in other positions within the seventh dimension and above, and this is why our universe, constrained at its position within that multiverse landscape never "wanders off" into one of those other universes.

(The rotating shapes below are known as the Platonic Solids. Pictured here are the tetrahedron, the cube or hexahedron, the octahedron, the dodecahedron, and the icosahedron. We'll talk about these shapes later on in this entry.)

So, why isn't the seventh dimension as far as we need to go? We have to continue with the logic we've used from the outset. Imagine a point of infinite size in the sixth dimension, and it's much the same as imagining the indeterminate point we started from with our thought experiment - the point encompasses the whole dimension. If we can think of a different point that is not subsumed by the first point, then the point-line-plane postulate tells us we've found a way to get to the "next dimension up": those two points define a line in the seventh dimension.

What if the second point we just imagined represents a universe where the strength of gravity is different from ours? Then the line that passes through those two points is like a one-dimensional line, and that line extends through all possible values for gravity. Different positions on that line would include "impossible" universes which could not have come into existence because the strength of gravity was above or below a certain threshold needed to allow a physical universe to express itself, and such imaginary universes might be at many places along the line, interspersed with universes that were able to cohere into more organized states.

What about a universe with a different value for the speed of light (or whatever physical constant you care to imagine)? That's not on the line we just drew. We could erase the other point we drew, then place a new point for a universe with a different speed of light, and the new line that passes through those two points would be all possible realities resulting from different values for the speed of light.

But what if I want to consider both lines simultaneously? It can't be done without entering the next dimension up, the eighth dimension. So with the logic of the point-line-plane postulate we have a way of thinking of the eighth dimension as being like a plane, and our universe can be viewed as a point in the eighth dimension with those two lines or any other lines representing other different-initial-conditions universe passing through our point within that plane.

Remember this: with the point-line-plane postulate, the point you start from is in dimension x, the line to a different point is in dimension x+1, and the plane defined by a third point not on that line is in dimension x+2. Having worked through three dimensions, nothing moves or changes about the first point, we are just adding dimensions that allow us to view that starting point from different perspectives. Thinking of our universe as a "largest possible point" encompassing the phase space of the sixth dimension, then, doesn't mean that we can't view that unchanging point from the widening perspective of the seventh or eighth dimension.  Quite the contrary: this logic is the accepted approach to visualizing spatial dimensions. Likewise, the idealized shapes we've started each of these entries with (like the octeract at the start of this entry) have an underlying symmetry, where each of the points are equidistant to their adjacent ones in the same way that the adjacent points of a 3D cube are equidistant when viewed within the third dimension. This means that the 8D octeract, like any of the other hypercube shapes, can be placed within a hypersphere with the same number of dimensions, and the outer points of the hypercube are pushed apart from the center of the hypersphere symmetrically: the point of indeterminate size can become a sphere occupying as little or as much of the dimension it's placed within. At its largest possible expression, this point becomes a finite but unbounded hypersphere occupying the entire phase space of the dimension it's within. We can also look at the other Platonic Solids we've been looking at here with this same idea of symmetric points pushed out from a central position in mind, and this includes shapes like the nested tetrahedra we see below left, which can be used to create the dodecahedron at the right.

Speaking of phase space, here's a link to a recent New Scientist article about a new paper published by Lee Smolin and others at, proposing that all possible universes could be contained within an eight-dimensional phase space. To follow the logic we've been pursuing here, the six-dimensional phase space for our own universe (or any specific universe with locked-in physical laws) would be a subset of an eight-dimensional phase space that encompasses all possible universes. Likewise, it's worth noting that Everett didn't limit his Theory of the Universal Wavefunction to just our unique universe: so while the phase space of a unique different-initial-conditions universe such as ours could be encompassed by the sixth dimension, the logic we've followed here shows us that Everett's theory ultimately should be considered from the phase space of the eighth dimension to include the wave function of all those other possible universes.

So what's beyond the eighth dimension? The simplest way to take our thought experiment to the next dimension up now is to ask this: how would you jump from the universe with a different value for gravity to the universe with the different speed of light without passing through the intermediate possibilities? To get to that addition degree of freedom, you need the next dimension up. For our 2D flatlander ant, that was the third dimension. For our fly in the fifth-dimensional garden hose analogy, that freedom to flit from location to location was in the sixth dimension. And for all these different universes considered from the eighth dimension, where do you think we'd achieve this additional degree of freedom?

Next: Imagining the Ninth Dimension

Imagining the Seventh Dimension
Imagining the Sixth Dimension
Imagining the Fifth Dimension
Imagining the Fourth Dimension
Imagining the Third Dimension
Imagining the Second Dimension


Daniel Lynch said...

Part 1....
Dear Mr Bryanton.

My name is Daniel Lynch. I am fascinated by your theories on the 10 dimensions. I would appreciate if you could respond to my questions because it is literally helping me see the omniverse. Now that may sound loopy(or maybe not), but I don't believe people are meant to see things beyond our perception with sensory organs NOT DESIGNED for such a task. Just as how you don't hear smells and don't see sound (well you might if you were schizophric or off your head on lsd but I don't think those are credible claims or perhaps they are. I'll get into that later). Therefore I have different theories on 4th dimensional "sight". What lead me onto higher dimensions is an amusing story. One day I was sitting there and I just knew, deep down that any second that my brother was going to walk into the room and give me a present. And without a doubt no word of a lie, he walks in 20 seconds later with a bottle of chocolate milk and says "Hey man, I got you this when I went down the street." I was flabbigasted but it piqued my interest. I went from studying psychic claims to reading about time being the 4th dimension. It fascinated me. As I read about the 4th I wanted to know what the 5th was, then the 6th, then 7th, and so on. As I began to watch your videos on youtube, I began to think that you may be right. So I have come and joined your blog to help answer my questions. I haven't seen all the videos you've made but I will watch them and the ones that I have seen seem to fit in with my personal experiences with what I call "Hyper dimension traveling". The first thing I have to ask, is how did you get your theories validated as at least from a logical stand point. Many people consider them a possibly correct theory on dimensions but the interesting thing is, thus far I haven't noticed any conformity to what people consider, the scientific process. For example, intellegent design which is a relabling of creationism has been rejected as a scientific theory because it has NO PROOF to back up its claim therefore it's not a proper scientific theory. Many atheists' such as myself think that it's insulting that people wish to have intellegent design taught AS FACT when there's nothing to suggest it is. To be continued in part 2.....

Daniel said...

Part 2....
But with your theories on higher dimensions, they seem to make sense although I haven't seen any evidence outside my own experiments to suggest that it's a proper scientific theory. Essentially it's respectable because it fits into the neat model of theories of higher dimensions. Essentially it just is what it is. The reason why I'm so curious is because I want to start my own project called the Infinite Dimension Project (i'll go into that in more detail some other time) and essentially what I'm asking is how did you get your project off the ground? Did you have to go to college? What would be the best way for me to get my theories and experiments validated? And finally would it be okay for me to correspond with you to help me find some answers to the many questions that I'm trying to find answers to. I respect your opinion and I would consider it a personal honor if you would accept. Last time I reached out to a person of intellegence regarding an issue of intellectual stimulae (Jacque Fresco, the Venus Project), I recieved no reply and frankly it was insulting, I will take no offence if you choose not to correspond with me, but I'd rather you tell me then to leave me hanging. Essentially the point of my project is to gain an understanding of higher realms of thought. Since I started with my experiments many odd "psychic" moments like the one I mentioned earlier have happenened. I'm curious to know if what I'm doing is not psychic at all, it's possibly what I think it is, it that it is possible to tap into higher dimensions with our simple 3dimensional forms, and if it's not and it's just a series of coincidences then I'm aiming to find out whether or not that's true. That's the aim of my project.
I wish you well Robert. I'd like to hear more from you and what you think of my theories and I will continue to strive to find out as much as I can about higher dimensions.

Daniel J, Lynch

Rob Bryanton said...

Hi Daniel, thanks for your letter. As I discuss again in the video I put up this morning on YouTube, "Scientific American on Rob Bryanton", the only claim I've ever made with this project is that I've come up with a unique way to allow people to visualize ten spatial dimensions, and that a lot of people from around the world have found ways to connect my approach to their own ways of understanding reality. I'm not a physicist, but I am a creative person with a curious mind, and a voracious reader.
So this is not a theory, it's a visualization. Because my approach resonates with so many other scientific and spiritual systems, I firmly believe that some day science will show how my approach is completely valid, but till then I'm just enjoying the interplay with other curious-minded individuals, teachers, and yes sometimes even scientists who enjoy my free-wheeling approach.
No question, if you do want to come up with a scientific theory which is valid and suported by your peers, then you will need to learn about the underlying science and math. Since I'm now approaching 60 and I already have an established career as a sound designer and composer, that's not the route I traveled. When I came up with this visualization approach almost 30 years ago, it was just fun to draw pictures on napkins and try to get people to understand what I was talking about. It wasn't until I came across Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace: A Scientific Odyssey Through Parallel Universes, Time Warps, and the 10th Dimension" that I became more passionate about how useful my approach seemed to be, and eventually I made the time to write my book and create the animation that vaulted this project to popularity.
Good luck!

Anonymous said...

Simple question : what dimension is closest of "chaos" or chaos theory?
( i hope that is over 6 )

Which(Dimension) is the case if you see the future of many at the same time and one of them happens later?


Rob Bryanton said...

Hi nitroedi, that's an interesting question. I talk about Chaos Theory a few times in my book, here's a related paragraph that comes to mind:

"When quantum physicist Seth Lloyd, in his book “Programming the Universe”, talks about information and reality being interchangeable, I feel a strong resonance between that statement and what we’re exploring in these pages: we are all navigating a sea of information, which from some perspectives may seem random and inexplicable. But within that sea of information we can find patterns and shapes, fractals and chaos, parts that start and parts that stop, all encoded within the underlying fabric of our observed reality."

So in my opinion the bifurcations, sudden shifts, areas of apparent noise/areas of order described by chaos theory are very much a part of the information patterns we're thinking about across the dimensions that result in a universe such as ours or any other.

We can see different applications of chaos theory depending upon the dimension we're examining: the ninth, which includes information patterns that can't be expressed as physical universes, obviously would have patterns of chaos and order, the sudden "flips" to a region which can precipitate out a physical universe, and so on. But even down in the fifth dimension, in a more limited way we can visualize the application of chaos theory - as we travel down our 4D "line of time" we are actually navigating through a 5D sea of possibilities, and clearly the sudden shifts that can happen - within a person's life all the way out to the full timeline of the universe - can be viewed from the dimensions above 4D space-time as exhibiting behaviors that fit within chaos theory. But the kind of data that we're analyzing with each dimension does change: so, the bifurcations within a 6D phase space for instance are still limited to the possible expressions of one universe (such as ours),and those are different from the bifurcations that occur within an 8D phase space, where we are moving through universes with different combinations of underlying physical laws.

Thanks for the great note!

Anonymous said...

Hi Rob

I go straight to the point, do you believe someone can remember the future ?

If you think that impossible to do, can u tell the theory to us why this idea is not true?

And if u believe its -( true/-theory) -it can be done.

Your best guess/theory why it will be possible.

(( Can you respond to each of the theory, at least if you do not believe it))

Can u give us your final sentence and resolutions why/ or how this can/ cant be done ?

And last.

If i claim that is true and i know it to be true.

- would that affect your theory 1-10 (( dimension))

And mostly, if someone could remember the future.

-what do you think it could mean a really big picture?!


Rob Bryanton said...

Hi nitroedi, good question! In my book I talk about the possibilities that intuition, instinct, prescience, genetic memory and so on could be examples of how for each of us our awareness is "draped" across much more than the "now" of our 4D window into reality. "Remembering the future" is actually one of my earliest blog entries as well:

Finally, just let me say this: "remembering the future" doesn't imply that each of us have an irreversible fate, a single possible lifeline. So while I believe it's possible to "remember" a possible future because it already exists, the probabilistic nature of our fifth-dimensional journey means that there are still other outcomes that can be the one you actually end up observing.

Anonymous said...

i Rob i give u one more.

U have a idea/theory several/many universe.

-Many same similar universe.

But maybe there is a some small exception, normal human would not be able to know, because a man can not so detailed remembrance.(( u have use different example of the force of gravity ))

((you have no basis of comparison))

Your self have say:

For example u die car accident 20xx-some of universe, but some of many universe that didn´t happen and that second bigger thing did not happen2.

if i claim that is not true and i know that second thing did happen every "multi/many/all" universe.

what could it mean?

i am sorry to say, your latest final is true and i believe it.

("it imply that each of us have an irreversible fate, a single possible lifeline")

- so we have 6-dimension line, what is different, but same time our mind is trying to get back to 5-dimension. (( i know that`s true )

But i have more to ask u? If we go every time that our fate is -5-dimension.

Did your draw one picture, where 5-dimension in is eternity or loop ?



Anonymous said...

Hi Rob, people who speak "remember the future" -know that is possible. So do you remember future, but u cant predict that? ( that is paradox )

but listen my story line.

1. sry my simple and maybe stupid englings i try to do my best.

"early years, i did get this "flasback" - moments that i attention- i was pretty sure, this was dejavuu.

Many of have fell situations where u get those dejavuus ??

So did i. But next weeks i did notice, this dejavuu`s come more and more. So i was thinking whatta hell, how i can be so sure that is all ready happend. (( at that point i didnt have ever read dimension or anything like that.

I get more and more those thoughts, so i did try to block them away.

(( simple do math) do i ever been place like this, or is it possible i have seen "this movie earlier" ))

-i did found the anwer when i found a pireted server, (( which produced the series (HBO) in USA after the first 24 hours of the first night ))

I live other side on world so, if serid period was out 28.5.2011 on usa, and next day i see that same, i did flee for sure i have seen this be in the pass/previously.

So like this was hapenning weekly, maybe that same time i was get first time time this "remember the future" ((flas)) i did see on my mind 2 year in front. that time was exclusive. I was sure i am not crazy and i did see the future.

and there have been right now 25 month after that.

So next 6 month after i was sure this is real, i did notice world is not going simply the right side ( i did notice there was second line)

who i did that ( i am EW artist, and i have done this along time.) 1. was thinking my self i am loosing my mind, my brain was over heating. But that was not the case.

I did make few assumption using my remember + ew math and i could draw the future ( didnt know that point, there is more than one future.)

So it was time 2011/2012 i did notice that there is for at leat 2 world, possible timelines. i was stuck. i know what i have seeen and remember and i did notice that my 1. true 2years flas forward there is something wrong.

So i make idea if there is 2, there can be or probability there is more than 2, so this remember come to me, and i did see them many.

about 10-15 mount ago i did stop counting. That point i have all ready remember over 10 diffent time line. After that i did get this remember/flow m ore often. maybe 3 days on / 7, but last January everything did change. 1.10.2013

after that i have seen future or get "FLOW" every single day.

I have measure who long it will take i get that "FLOW"

-i know wiki have good article of that.

normaali time is alike 20min, but my records is 3 min 40 s.

i dont know how to say this, my real mind get((lowest state of)) consiciousness on that time, and everthing what i do or see or feel or evething i think of has already been done.

its not Elliott wave or stock markets is everthing even my close ones, i can get a "flow" even litebit predict.



Anonymous said...

i am sorry if i did upset your mind earlier. I don`t know why u did not answer me at single time?

I have thinks that a lot, did i choose that u are my tutor, or did u choose that your are not my.

Any how i am disappointed.

This one expression can tell everything:

""Finally, just let me say this: "remembering the future" doesn't imply that (each of us have an irreversible fate), a single possible lifeline. So while I believe it's possible to "remember" a possible future because it already exists, the probabilistic nature of our fifth-dimensional journey means that there are still other outcomes that can be the one you actually end up observing.""

- i disagree.

( and i know that`s not true. Sleep well )


Rob Bryanton said...

Hi nitroedi, my apologies, my work has me putting in long hours lately and I haven't had time for my hobby, which is this project. I did respond to several of your previous messages though, so I hope you understand that I'm not deliberately ignoring you!



Anonymous said...


MY NAME IS Saki Luukkainen, i am living on Finland.

i have use nick name on internet call "nitroedi"

or nitro as my Friends call me.

U need to talk to me man. becouse. i know somethinsg u dont dont know. but u are gusessing !!

Rob Bryanton said...

Hi Saki/nitro,

What do you know that I don't know? Fill me in, I'd love to hear it!


nitroedi said...

I have been writing on you my gmail address. On my yahoo mail and my local mail address.

At this point i need to make guess. U have not get my emails ?

-If that`s true. I'm confused ?

-But even so.

I still wanna say u something, what i believe and u don`t know. But i would want get better "environment" on this kinda "speech" or discussion.

I understand that, this event could be nice to have open/a free place like your blog. - so it will be your blog, that will be nice. thx.

I promise:

I am always sober when I write to you about this, or when i make any opinion. Because you and I'm worth it.

"You have given me a challenge."

-I am happy and I will answer it.

Dream = uni, unelmoida, unelma, uni, näky.

i will start my next post. I am just I wonder do i need to day one. Or go straight to the point ??

Rob Bryanton said...

Absolutely nitroedi, I think this is a great place to have such a conversation. After all, similar discussions used to happen in the tenth dimension forum but I had to shut that down, just couldn't keep it secure enough from the constant attacks. But here is a safe and secure place for us to have a frank and serious discussion, and I am all ears to whatever you'd like to talk about.

YouTube tends to be where I've been having these conversations over the past few years, which is okay enough because YouTube will often push my older comments up to the top so I don't have to keep re-posting. But overall YouTube's nature is for it to be short-term-attention-span-focused, so sometimes very valuable conversations get pushed out of sight there, which is too bad.

If you need to beat around the bush to be more comfortable then go for it, but I'm ready to hear whatever you want to say when you want to say it.

Best wishes,


nitroedi said...

chapter one.

from the beginning:

Honesty is rewarded later

I did work on Nokia like 12 years. I was on age 31/32. when i did leave Nokia mobile phones.

I was burned out and same time Nokia did give people money if they leave Nokia. I did take that.

I Have been very curious about everything? -such as Nokia shares.

-I became interested in quickly EW. theory. aka Elliott Wave. On my age 32/33 years.

Some dude did say u can predict the future if u use EW. So that point i did think i need to know more about that.

Some my www. Friend did hook up on skype and we all wanna know more about this awesome theory.

We did make calculator. on EW theory. its was on like 2009/2010. Then i did get a lot depression- why ? this "Calculator" did give us point accuracy every turning points.

I was thinking how this can be true ? -DAX = GERMAN 30 is like your SP500 or Dow Jones. How to hell this can be happening, Wave 1-2-3-4-5-a-b-c- and every point did turn like what our calculator did say.

-And i did think I don`t wanna live this live anymore -Because everything is all ready happen, there is no Random.

Then about 2011 i did do my first assumption. Something radical/ special did happen.

And that did change everything.


Rob can i write like 2-3 chapter, so i can really say my thing, and after that i am gointo blow and say everything ? -of course u know all ready this point what i am gointo say. Because its so hard to believe u didnt get my last messages on yahoo mail.

i did see that mail did go somewhere. ? i did use longer version on that mail address!

nitroedi said...

Hi Rob,

I did say, 10.1.2014. and i will wait.

Tenth Dimension Vlog playlist